nanogui: Thread: GTK Ideas


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Subject: GTK Ideas
From: "Jason Scannell" ####@####.####
Date: 17 Jun 1999 15:16:53 -0000
Message-Id: <003301beb8d3$bf3849e0$1000000a@stcl1.mi.home.com>

What if instead of porting GTK+, simply use the API and drop all theme support.  The actual look and feel wouldn't matter and probably should be rethought with 480x240, 640x240, and 240x320 screens in mind.  This would allow for specific optimization for Nano-X and size but still make it easy to port GTK based applications.

Has anybody thought about how a window manager would handle small screens?  What does everyone think about full screen windows only, such as in Windows CE?

Jason
Subject: Re: GTK Ideas
From: Alex Holden ####@####.####
Date: 17 Jun 1999 15:33:20 -0000
Message-Id: <Pine.LNX.4.04.9906171620510.21858-100000@www.linuxhacker.org>

On Thu, 17 Jun 1999, Jason Scannell wrote:
> What if instead of porting GTK+, simply use the API and drop all theme
> support.  The actual look and feel wouldn't matter and probably should
> be rethought with 480x240, 640x240, and 240x320 screens in mind.  This
> would allow for specific optimization for Nano-X and size but still make
> it easy to port GTK based applications.

Rewrite GTK+ directly on top of Nano-X with everything except themes?
Although it would be nice if GTK+ could be made a bit smaller, It would be
easier and more useful to just port GDK and use the full GTK+. I think
themes are a very nice feature too; it would be easy to create a "PDA
theme", with the menu bars, etc. being better suited to small mono
displays.

> Has anybody thought about how a window manager would handle small
> screens?  What does everyone think about full screen windows only, such
> as in Windows CE?

Yes, it has been discussed before. There are probably going to be at least
two window managers, one with all the bells and whistles for machines with
at least 640x480 and a few megs of memory, and a tiny one for palmtops and
very low memory systems. Multiple desktops and all windows except dialog
boxes being full screen is likely to be at least an option for the smaller
WM.

--------------- Linux- the choice of a GNU generation. --------------
: Alex Holden (M1CJD)- Caver, Programmer, Land Rover nut, Radio Ham :
-------------------- http://www.linuxhacker.org/ --------------------

Subject: Re: GTK Ideas
From: Alan Cox ####@####.####
Date: 17 Jun 1999 15:47:19 -0000
Message-Id: <E10ueHc-0001Kb-00@the-village.bc.nu>

> Rewrite GTK+ directly on top of Nano-X with everything except themes?

That would be hard and not help. Gtk themeing doesnt take any memory really,
its loadable libraries thats all]

> easier and more useful to just port GDK and use the full GTK+. I think
> themes are a very nice feature too; it would be easy to create a "PDA
> theme", with the menu bars, etc. being better suited to small mono
> displays.

Gtk is probably too big for a low end PDA, thats just how things go.

> very low memory systems. Multiple desktops and all windows except dialog
> boxes being full screen is likely to be at least an option for the smaller
> WM.

I'm playing with this stuff at the moment though under X11, with a think called
wm110 (window manager optimised for PC110). Its derived from 9wm/wmx so its
very small, and it has a simple window placement policy that says all windows
are nearly full screen size, you can flip between them.

The theory is on a small screen it isnt worth putting apps side by side. It
seems to be the policy most PDA's are using

Alan

Subject: Re: GTK Ideas
From: Alex Holden ####@####.####
Date: 17 Jun 1999 16:12:15 -0000
Message-Id: <Pine.LNX.4.04.9906171701250.21858-100000@www.linuxhacker.org>

On Thu, 17 Jun 1999, Alan Cox wrote:
> Gtk is probably too big for a low end PDA, thats just how things go.

I think you're right, though I'm hoping to be able to use it on 16MB and
above machines like the Geofox.

> I'm playing with this stuff at the moment though under X11, with a think called
> wm110 (window manager optimised for PC110). Its derived from 9wm/wmx so its
> very small, and it has a simple window placement policy that says all windows
> are nearly full screen size, you can flip between them.

Sounds interesting. Any idea what would be the minimum needed to implement
in Nano-X to be able to port it to a version suitable for linking into
Nano-X? How big is it? What features does it implement? Is it available 
for download anywhere?

> The theory is on a small screen it isnt worth putting apps side by side. It
> seems to be the policy most PDA's are using

Yes, though I seem to recall both Epoc and wince are capable of drawing
multiple overlapping windows, it's just the way the WM policies prevent
you from doing it. I'd like to be able to have more than one window on
the screen simultaneously if I choose to, even though the default will
probably be full screen (or maybe almost full screen, but with a panel for
things like clocks and disk meters on one side, like Epoc).

--------------- Linux- the choice of a GNU generation. --------------
: Alex Holden (M1CJD)- Caver, Programmer, Land Rover nut, Radio Ham :
-------------------- http://www.linuxhacker.org/ --------------------

Subject: Re: GTK Ideas
From: "Jason Scannell" ####@####.####
Date: 17 Jun 1999 16:59:22 -0000
Message-Id: <006501beb8e2$0ffe5b40$1000000a@stcl1.mi.home.com>

What about a CDE/KDE/Gnome style panel instead of a Windows style task bar?  Application launching and window selection would have to be incorporated into the same panel more like Gnome to help save screen space.  I have actually drawn some prototypes to see how things would fit.  An exact replica of the Gnome panel would probably consume too much screen space, it's too tall.  A handwriting recognition area should also be considered in the overall layout.

Jason

----- Original Message ----- 
  From: Bradley D. LaRonde 
  To: Jason Scannell 
  Sent: Thursday, June 17, 1999 11:11 AM
  Subject: Re: GTK Ideas


    Has anybody thought about how a window manager would handle small screens?  What does everyone think about full screen windows only, such as in Windows CE?
  My vote for full screen windows only... or a window manager that did not allow windows to overlap - keeps multiple windows tiled. Also, I like the task bar idea a lot. It should probably be the only way to launch programs. In fact, I DON'T like the desktop really, since it's always getting covered by windows. IMO ditch the desktop completely and go full screen only with a task bar for launching and switching.
   
  Regards,
  Brad
Subject: RE: GTK Ideas
From: Greg Haerr ####@####.####
Date: 17 Jun 1999 17:01:39 -0000
Message-Id: <01BEB8AF.4BC82CB0.greg@censoft.com>

 
: > Has anybody thought about how a window manager would handle small
: > screens?  What does everyone think about full screen windows only, such
: > as in Windows CE?
: 
: Yes, it has been discussed before. There are probably going to be at least
: two window managers, one with all the bells and whistles for machines with
: at least 640x480 and a few megs of memory, and a tiny one for palmtops and
: very low memory systems. Multiple desktops and all windows except dialog
: boxes being full screen is likely to be at least an option for the smaller
: WM.
: 
	I have solved this problem with the micro-windows window manager
model, in my version 0.8.  There is no need for multiple window managers, since
the base windowing system allows the window data structure to be of any size
and any position.  A "full screen" window is just a window with the caption
positioned NW off the screen.  Anyway, to give you an example, the micro-windows
kernel gdi and window manager all take up a grand total of 42k on 16-bit machines.
Subject: RE: GTK Ideas
From: Greg Haerr ####@####.####
Date: 17 Jun 1999 17:05:02 -0000
Message-Id: <01BEB8AF.C4413D30.greg@censoft.com>

: Yes, though I seem to recall both Epoc and wince are capable of drawing
: multiple overlapping windows, it's just the way the WM policies prevent
: you from doing it. I'd like to be able to have more than one window on
: the screen simultaneously if I choose to, even though the default will
: probably be full screen (or maybe almost full screen, but with a panel for
: things like clocks and disk meters on one side, like Epoc).
: 

	All this is currently implemented.  Full screen, one window, multiple
windows, side-by-side, overlapped windows, child windows.
Subject: Re: GTK Ideas
From: Alan Cox ####@####.####
Date: 17 Jun 1999 17:06:18 -0000
Message-Id: <E10ufWA-0001Pf-00@the-village.bc.nu>

> Sounds interesting. Any idea what would be the minimum needed to implement
> in Nano-X to be able to port it to a version suitable for linking into
> Nano-X? How big is it? What features does it implement? Is it available 
> for download anywhere?

Its C++. Thats the biggest problem. I need to move the changes into lwm which
is another 9wm derivative that is in C and therefore cleaner.

> multiple overlapping windows, it's just the way the WM policies prevent
> you from doing it. I'd like to be able to have more than one window on
> the screen simultaneously if I choose to, even though the default will
> probably be full screen (or maybe almost full screen, but with a panel for
> things like clocks and disk meters on one side, like Epoc).

Right now the policy is

(Screen width - 100 pixels , screen height) are is the application area. All
managed non transients are forcibly stuffed there. Transients are centered
on this area and moveable so you can always look under a dialog box.

The second strip on the right is only accessible to unmanaged windows - like
the gnome panel, which is exactly what lives there on my test setup.

It does feel very psion-ish actually

All 9wm derived programs basically want is simple text/line drawing functions,
the ability to send/receive messages and to manage and resize windows. The
obvious one we don't seem to have is the idea of reparenting. Also nanogui
doesnt yet have a scheme as X does where a program says 'this big' and the wm
says 'no that big'


Alan


Subject: Re: GTK Ideas
From: Alex Holden ####@####.####
Date: 17 Jun 1999 17:09:02 -0000
Message-Id: <Pine.LNX.4.04.9906171801400.21858-100000@www.linuxhacker.org>

On Thu, 17 Jun 1999, Jason Scannell wrote:
> What about a CDE/KDE/Gnome style panel instead of a Windows style task
> bar?  Application launching and window selection would have to be

I don't think there's much difference really. One has a button with
"Start" on it, and the other has a button with a picture of a footprint on
it... Both have a menu system that lets you choose applications, both can
embed applets.

> incorporated into the same panel more like Gnome to help save screen
> space.  I have actually drawn some prototypes to see how things would

It's called a chooser. Though keyboard shortcuts are probably more useful,
especially if you're dealing with a touchpad or trackball.

> much screen space, it's too tall.  A handwriting recognition area should
> also be considered in the overall layout.

Handwriting recognition is a seperate issue.

--------------- Linux- the choice of a GNU generation. --------------
: Alex Holden (M1CJD)- Caver, Programmer, Land Rover nut, Radio Ham :
-------------------- http://www.linuxhacker.org/ --------------------


Subject: RE: GTK Ideas
From: Greg Haerr ####@####.####
Date: 17 Jun 1999 17:13:49 -0000
Message-Id: <01BEB8B0.FAFF68F0.greg@censoft.com>

: 
: All 9wm derived programs basically want is simple text/line drawing functions,
: the ability to send/receive messages and to manage and resize windows. The
: obvious one we don't seem to have is the idea of reparenting. Also nanogui
: doesnt yet have a scheme as X does where a program says 'this big' and the wm
: says 'no that big'
: 

	Parenting or reparenting is simple in nano.

	If you want the wm to ok window sizes, that shouldn't be very hard,
at window create time we can send a message to the wm, and it can have it's say.
I don't know if that's the right direction though, if you want to keep code size down.


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