gnupic: Thread: Simulator literature suggestions?

Hello simulator enthusiasts,

Can you recommend some books on the art of writing simulators for
microcontrollers?
I cant find anything on this subject but if you have some suggestions I
would appreciate it.
My first impression is that developers for such program would use OOP with
C++ but I have seen development of simulators using JAVA but why is that?
Have JAVA something that C++ lack or is it just because of lack of C++
programmers ? HiTech is writing an IDE simulator for PICmicro (HI-TIDE) and
what I heard they develop it using JAVA. Triscend (FPGA+microcontroller in
one company) writes their IDE simulator in JAVA. Is there some reason for
this?

Regards
Niklas Wennerstrand

On Sat, 6 Jan 2001, Niklas Wennerstrand wrote:

> Hello simulator enthusiasts,
> 
> Can you recommend some books on the art of writing simulators for
> microcontrollers?
> I cant find anything on this subject but if you have some suggestions I
> would appreciate it.
> My first impression is that developers for such program would use OOP with
> C++ but I have seen development of simulators using JAVA but why is that?
> Have JAVA something that C++ lack or is it just because of lack of C++
> programmers ? HiTech is writing an IDE simulator for PICmicro (HI-TIDE) and
> what I heard they develop it using JAVA. Triscend (FPGA+microcontroller in
> one company) writes their IDE simulator in JAVA. Is there some reason for
> this?

Eric Smith recently pointed out this:

http://sources.redhat.com/sid/

I know nothing about it other than what's written on the their web page.

---
There are two things Java lacks: programmers and speed. Also, when I started
gpsim there wasn't a very good Java development environment available (for
free). After version 9 or so (before gpsim had a gui), Andrew Burgess wrote a
Java wrapper around gpsim. There's still a link on the gpsim web page to it.

It's funny that you should mention Triscend as an example of a Java
IDE. It's a perfect example of Java program that's run amuck. It's also a
perfect example of why IDE's suck (to a first order approximation). The FastCHIP
99 software was pathetic, their version 2 was only slightly better. If you look
beneath the scenes, you'll notice that the Java IDE sits on top of a CLI
interface (now that's clever :). I'm quite certain that the CLI is not written
in Java. As a consequence, the multi-platform promise of Java is broken... A
serious user of the Triscend parts will undoubtedly give up the gui in favor of
the CLI (I did at least, but now I'm not using triscend any more).

A rhetorical question: Are there any good IDE's out there? 

Scott

	I think they are doing it because Java offers cross-platform GUI (not possible with C++), and it is easier on the 
programmer than C++. easier to program. But Java is slower than C++........
I know 2 simulators implemented in Java:
1>Feersum Pic Emulator http://www.feertech.demon.co.uk/picem/ (works in web browser JVM too)
2.> Hades http://tech-www.informatik.uni-hamburg.de/applets/hades/html/hades.html

	Regards,
	
	Dincer Aydin
>Hello simulator enthusiasts,
>
>Can you recommend some books on the art of writing simulators for
>microcontrollers?
>I cant find anything on this subject but if you have some suggestions I
>would appreciate it.
>My first impression is that developers for such program would use OOP with
>C++ but I have seen development of simulators using JAVA but why is that?
>Have JAVA something that C++ lack or is it just because of lack of C++
>programmers ? HiTech is writing an IDE simulator for PICmicro (HI-TIDE) and
>what I heard they develop it using JAVA. Triscend (FPGA+microcontroller in
>one company) writes their IDE simulator in JAVA. Is there some reason for
>this?
>
>Regards
>Niklas Wennerstrand
>
>
>
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>
>

Maybe the use of Java is due to that it's a free development tool for
building GUI and that it is "easier" than C++. I can understand why
enthusiast embrace free software. Correct me if I'm wrong but isn't Qt from
Trolltech a development tool for multiplatforms if you use the full version?
If I was a serious developer that was working on a paid project I would look
at Qt. I mean if it's a multiplatform then I would get support for all in
one, right? It's still a mystery to me that real company project is using
Java. May it depend on that it's so hyped? The world is full of .com Java
programmers and maybe its easier to find Java programmers.

Thanks for the nice links to SID and Java projects.
I guess that its not that much literature written on the subject of writing
simulator software.
Maybe some of you guys writing gpsim will write a book about it in a distant
future. Or maybe not as it probably would not sell in any big volumes.

Regards
Niklas Wennerstrand


-----Ursprungligt meddelande-----
Från:	Dincer Aydin ####@####.####
Skickat:	den 6 januari 2001 21:27
Till:	####@####.####
Ämne:	Re: Simulator literature suggestions?

	I think they are doing it because Java offers cross-platform GUI (not
possible with C++), and it is easier on the
programmer than C++. easier to program. But Java is slower than C++........
I know 2 simulators implemented in Java:
1>Feersum Pic Emulator http://www.feertech.demon.co.uk/picem/ (works in web
browser JVM too)
2.> Hades
http://tech-www.informatik.uni-hamburg.de/applets/hades/html/hades.html

	Regards,

	Dincer Aydin
>Hello simulator enthusiasts,
>
>Can you recommend some books on the art of writing simulators for
>microcontrollers?
>I cant find anything on this subject but if you have some suggestions I
>would appreciate it.
>My first impression is that developers for such program would use OOP with
>C++ but I have seen development of simulators using JAVA but why is that?
>Have JAVA something that C++ lack or is it just because of lack of C++
>programmers ? HiTech is writing an IDE simulator for PICmicro (HI-TIDE) and
>what I heard they develop it using JAVA. Triscend (FPGA+microcontroller in
>one company) writes their IDE simulator in JAVA. Is there some reason for
>this?
>
>Regards
>Niklas Wennerstrand
>
>
>
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>To unsubscribe, e-mail: ####@####.####
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>
>




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On Sun, 7 Jan 2001, Niklas Wennerstrand wrote:

> Maybe some of you guys writing gpsim will write a book about it in a distant
> future. 

Hmm. I don't think so!

>         Or maybe not as it probably would not sell in any big volumes.

Maybe Bob Pease would by a copy or two :). (FYI, Bob Pease is the National Semi
analogue guru who has been known to throw computers from the top of tall
buildings because of bugs in SPICE programs. He also drives a volkswagon
decorated with a giant shark fin.)

Instead of a book, perhaps a magazine article? 

Scott

1/7/2001 8:11:14 AM, "Niklas Wennerstrand" ####@####.#### wrote:

>Correct me if I'm wrong but isn't Qt from
>Trolltech a development tool for multiplatforms if you use the full version?
>If I was a serious developer that was working on a paid project I would look
>at Qt. I mean if it's a multiplatform then I would get support for all in
>one, right? 
Well, while I have never used it there is alsi vxWindows
at http://www.wxwindows.org/ also claiming Cross platform GUI, and maybe there are others.
As for QT I have yet to see it at work on something other than KDE. Maybe it is because the full ver is not free.

>It's still a mystery to me that real company project is using
>Java. May it depend on that it's so hyped? The world is full of .com Java
>programmers and maybe its easier to find Java programmers.
I do not think it is a mystery, but the hype must have an effect...
On what Java is and what it is not I found these useful
The book Thinking in Java by Bruce Eckel http://www.bruceeckel.com/ (the electronic version is free)
Bjarne Stroustrup's FAQ http://www.research.att.com/~bs/bs_faq.html#Java

Dincer Aydin

One solution to the cross-platform GUI problem might be GNUstep
(http://www.gnustep.org/) - it's a GNU implementation of the OpenStep, aka
Cocoa framework used by NeXT, and now by Apple's MacOS X. A Windows port is
in development, but not yet stable.

It can be used in Java and Objective C - not C++

-Randy Glenn

My software doesn't have bugs; it develops random features.
=================================================
Randy_Glenn-at-tvo.org - PICxpert-at-picxpert.com
 PICxpert-at-yahoo.com - PICxpert-at-home.com
            http://www.picxpert.com/
=================================================

-----Original Message-----
From: Niklas Wennerstrand ####@####.####
Sent: Saturday, January 06, 2001 12:45 PM
To: ####@####.####
Subject: Simulator literature suggestions?


Hello simulator enthusiasts,

Can you recommend some books on the art of writing simulators for
microcontrollers?
I cant find anything on this subject but if you have some suggestions I
would appreciate it.
My first impression is that developers for such program would use OOP with
C++ but I have seen development of simulators using JAVA but why is that?
Have JAVA something that C++ lack or is it just because of lack of C++
programmers ? HiTech is writing an IDE simulator for PICmicro (HI-TIDE) and
what I heard they develop it using JAVA. Triscend (FPGA+microcontroller in
one company) writes their IDE simulator in JAVA. Is there some reason for
this?

Regards
Niklas Wennerstrand



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 . ####@####.####  .


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On Sun, 7 Jan 2001, Dincer Aydin wrote:
> As for QT I have yet to see it at work on something other than KDE.
> Maybe it is because the full ver is not free.

As I understand it, you can get it under the terms of the GPL (_not_ the
LGPL), in which case you must also licence your application under the GPL.
If that isn't acceptable, you can get it under the old commercial licence
terms for £bignum.

Alternately you could just use the GTK+ (which also has a Win32 port, but
is licenced under the LGPL).

-- 
------- Alex Holden -------
http://www.linuxhacker.org/
 http://www.robogeeks.org/

Niklas Wennerstrand wrote:
> 
> Hello simulator enthusiasts,
> 
> Can you recommend some books on the art of writing simulators for
> microcontrollers?
> I cant find anything on this subject but if you have some suggestions I
> would appreciate it.
> My first impression is that developers for such program would use OOP with
> C++ but I have seen development of simulators using JAVA but why is that?
> Have JAVA something that C++ lack or is it just because of lack of C++
> programmers ? HiTech is writing an IDE simulator for PICmicro (HI-TIDE) and
> what I heard they develop it using JAVA. Triscend (FPGA+microcontroller in
> one company) writes their IDE simulator in JAVA. Is there some reason for
> this?
>

There is a simulator available (probably very expensive) that has it's
origin
at the SICS institute in sweden, there is atleast something mentioned
about 
a paper  http://www.sics.se/cna/simulation.html

/Sten
 
> Regards
> Niklas Wennerstrand
> 
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> To unsubscribe, e-mail: ####@####.####
> For additional commands, e-mail: ####@####.####