Subject:
Re: Proposed Trial: Online PIC Discussions
From:
James Cameron ####@####.####
Date:
10 Feb 2000 02:50:13 -0000
Message-Id: <20000210133915.A998@us.netrek.org>
Sample discussion from today's #pic chat ...
Topics discussed were;
- PIC Internet Contest, Circuit Cellar
- TCP/IP Practicalities on PIC
- Linux IDE for PIC
- MPLAB 4.99 trialled by one user
- Palmtops for viewing Microchip data sheets
**** BEGIN LOGGING AT Thu Feb 10 09:05:26 2000
--> Quozl ####@####.#### has joined #pic
--> Anthtek ####@####.#### has joined #pic
<Anthtek> Hello again people.
<Quozl> hi.
<Anthtek> Have you seen the latest Circuit Cellar Magazine, there is a PIC - Internet contest.
<Anthtek> I hope someone comes up with a cheap method for connecting a PIC to the internet.
<Kirks_Monkey> wish this was busier.... not that I contribute much
<Kirks_Monkey> PIC just doesn't have enough RAM to do anything serious with communications
<Quozl> I disagree. I've reviewed Denis Petrov's code, and it is practical, though tight. TCP/IP has a cut-down mode useful for embedded systems.
<Anthtek> I was thinking small, like temperatuire monitoring.
<Kirks_Monkey> Its not "cut down", its non-compliant, isn't it?
<Quozl> (Permission to include a log of this discussion to spark interest on PIClist? I'm off for five days in five hours.
<Kirks_Monkey> In any case, I'm not saying you can't do tcp/ip on a PIC, I'm just saying there are better targets then a PIC
<Quozl> Kirks_Monkey: no, I've read the TCP/IP RFCs and most of the functionality (80%) of TCP/IP is actually optimisation and does not need to be included in all situations.
<Quozl> Kirks_Monkey: I think it depends on the PIC. Bigger PICs would have more memory.
<Anthtek> I can't imagine spending more than $100 on an Ethernet interface just for temperature monitoring stations.
<Kirks_Monkey> The biggest I use is the 16c877 which has 384 bytes of RAM and sometimes I have to watch myself (I do parsing of $GPS strings, which can be verbose)
<Anthtek> Quozl: I give you my permission to publish my rantings.
<Kirks_Monkey> I think the JINI (which I know almost nothing about) has a built in ethernet port and is at the $50 price point
<Kirks_Monkey> JINI- from Dallas SemiConductor
<Kirks_Monkey> Q:Likewise
<Anthtek> Kirks_Monkey: I'll check out JINI, thanks.
<Kirks_Monkey> I mean, I'm *not* trying to turn you off a PIC, but I always try to balance my development time versus how many units I will make
--> ncherry ####@####.#### has joined #pic
<Kirks_Monkey> Like, I think I just made a mistake, at least short term. I'm doing a development project in which I think I would have been better off with a TigerBasic module instead of a 16F877. Mostly because I'm just developing prototype algorithms and am not yet ready to code for production
<Anthtek> Kirks_Monkey: Are those TigerBasicmodules fast enough or do you find yourself writing assembly half the time to overcome slow BASIC code?
<Kirks_Monkey> They are much faster then a basic stamp.... I think about 100K instruction a second versus 2K second for a basic stamp. So no, never had to but I also know the limitations. Also, there are simply some things I wouldn't do on it.
<Kirks_Monkey> Anyways, I'm going to go back into lurk mode. Got a trade show next week and have to finish up one of the prototypes (don't you just love trade shows! smoke and mirrors! (just kidding!!))
<Anthtek> Kirks_Monkey: Thanks for the chat, have fun.
<Kirks_Monkey> sure, howdy ncherry also
<ncherry> Howdy, this is my first time on an IRC.
<Anthtek> welcome to IRC ncherry.
<Anthtek> ncherry: What kind of PIC things are you interested in or have done?
<ncherry> So far I've played with the 16F84 and the 16F877.
<ncherry> I have the ICD and I'm using C2C.
<Anthtek> I only have the Pictsart+ and use Assembler. I suppose C2C is a C compiler?
<ncherry> I also have the PICSTART+, MELabs BASIC (not the pro) and MPLAB
<ncherry> (I often resort to assembly).
<ncherry> Yes the C2C is a C compiler. So far I'm pretty happy with it.
<Anthtek> Is the ICD the one that MicroChip sells? How do you like it -- I saw it at the last MICROCHIP seminar.
<ncherry> So far I'm happy with it. I don't like it single break point
<ncherry> but I haven't really used it too heavily.
* Quozl returns
<Quozl> ncherry: permission to include you in a posting to piclist next week, a log of this channel's discussion.
<ncherry> I have not problem with that.
<Quozl> ncherry: thanks.
<Quozl> I'm a 16F84 and 12C509 fiddler. I've bought five 16F877's but I haven't programmed them yet.
<Anthtek> I've tried ACTUMs realizer with the 12C508 and it was super EASY to generate a little project, too bad the full version is more than $1000.
<Quozl> I do all my PICing on zero software budget. Hardware maximum about $10 per month.
<ncherry> Same here!
<Anthtek> If you don't know ACTUMs Realizer allows you to draw a circuit diagram then press a button make the PIC hex file.
<Anthtek> I'm a zero budget guy (as much as I can help it) that's why I'm trying to make my own IDE for the PIC under Linux with a tiny subset of the features of the Realizer.
<ncherry> C2C has a compiler for Linux (as well as a Pascal compiler). I asm it under WIN.
<Anthtek> I've been buying my chips from DigiKey, They always have the stock but the costs get pretty high when you include shipping etc.
<ncherry> Same here, I try to buy a few things at a time for my projects.
<Anthtek> ncherry: whats the web site for C2C?
<Quozl> Anthtek: you are using gpasm and gpsim as your basis for integrated development environment?
<Anthtek> Quozl: Yes, to both. I've also included links to picp (the serial programmer for PICSTART+). I've set up the screens so that any assembler can be added/selected.
<Quozl> Anthtek: I have "make a gpprg" on my list of things to do. tait style.
<Anthtek> I know that there are a lot of supplimentary command line programs for the PIC under Linux so I wanted to make it easy for the user to select which one they want to use.
<Anthtek> Is gpprg a parallel port programmer?
<Quozl> It will be if I wroite it.
<Anthtek> I've gotta take a short break, wife needs the phone :-)
<Anthtek> Quozl: post a link to gpprg on http:www.gnupic.org once youve started.
<-- Anthtek has quit (xchat exiting..)
<ncherry> Quozi, does the PICLIST block sigon's from @home.net?
--> PICxpert ####@####.#### has joined #pic
<PICxpert> hello all
<ncherry> PICxpert: Hello
<PICxpert> Anyone tried MPLAB 4.99? It was released today.
<ncherry> Nope, I'm still using 4.12.12, I'll have to get it later.
<PICxpert> Well, don't bother with the Web installer - get the file with all of the installation disks. They still don't have the web install working.
<ncherry> Thanks, I'll avoid it. It would be nice if they had a Linux version. :-)
<PICxpert> Well, I was thinking about writing my own microcontroller development suite. I was hoping to make it cross-platform, but I can't figure out how to do plugins - I can do them with Windows DLLs easily in VB.
<PICxpert> I want to make it totally plugin-based, so adding other processors, compilers, programmers, and simulators is easy.
<ncherry> I wouldn't even know where to begin to program such a suite, but I'm not too bad at assembly. :-)
<PICxpert> Well, I've started work on the UI, and am thinking about what kind of class templates to use for the plugins. I'm hooked on Object-Oriented programming.
<PICxpert> If I ever make this suite, I want versions for Windows, Mac, Linux, BeOS, and PalmPilot. I don't particularly care for Windows CE.
<ncherry> I've never really understood Objects larger than bits, bytes and words. :-)
<ncherry> I think the Palm version may be a bit tough to do though.
<PICxpert> The Palm version would be an extremely "light" version - likely no more than an assembler.
<PICxpert> Or maybe just a downloader - transfer a HEX file to a programmer, so field techs don't need a notebook to burn replacement parts.
<ncherry> You need to have a burner interface also so you can download to the PIC (or whatever CPU).
<PICxpert> No problem. Just take a standard parallel-port PIC programmer, hook up a PIC to translate the serial data from the Palm's serial port into data for the parallel port, an voila!
<PICxpert> er, "and voila!"
<Kirks_Monkey> PICexpert, what don't you like about WINce compared to Palm? (other then bill)
<PICxpert> It costs too much, and I think it's too much for a handheld. If you need that much capability, take around a featherlight notebook, or something more powerful.
<PICxpert> I don't think a handheld should need 16MB of RAM.
<Kirks_Monkey> OK, nothing substaintal, just a personal opinion? I use them for controllers
<Kirks_Monkey> BTW, B/W CE is not much more then Palm. About $225
<ncherry> Kirks_Monkey: What Wince or just the CPU's?
<Kirks_Monkey> plus it has audio....can play wav files, which I needed
<Kirks_Monkey> Windows CE, the palmtop's
<PICxpert> Kirks_Monkey: Well, colour palms are on the way - Feb. 20ish, methinks
<Kirks_Monkey> Thats what I hear. Will they play wav files yet?
<ncherry> Probably not directly.
<Kirks_Monkey> Don't get me wrong.... I think the Palm is more of a hacker device (hence I like it better) it just couldn't do what I needed (or the customer for that matter)
<PICxpert> I think they might play sounds. I have heard, however, that they will sport an expansion slot, a la Visor
<Kirks_Monkey> I think the street price on a E-100 is about $425, how do the color palms compare to that?
<Kirks_Monkey> (the E-15 was the one at $225.... B/W)
<ncherry> Nighty, night folks, see you another night.
<-- ncherry has quit (Leaving)
<Kirks_Monkey> O'tay. Have a good one.
<PICxpert> The price of a colour palm is as yet unknown.
<PICxpert> Hey - this is kinda cool: Palm 3.5 (the OS on the Colour ones) will have PDF support.
<PICxpert> We could read PIC datasheets on a PIM!
<Kirks_Monkey> Hmmmm.... not sure if CE does..
<PICxpert> Still, I wish that the Newton was still around. Sure, it weighed 5 pounds, and cost $1000, but it had _working_ handwriting recognition. Plus, it was from Apple ;)
* Quozl returns from lunch
<Kirks_Monkey> Who is providing the PDF support for the Palm?
<PICxpert> It will be integrated into the OS itself, according to cnet
<PICxpert> See y'all later - must go now and sleep. Bye!
<-- PICxpert ####@####.#### has left #pic
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<Quozl> Welcome back.
<Anthtek> Hi folks. It's getting lonely in here.
<Quozl> Yeah. Although you missed PICxpert's discussions.
<Quozl> He's writing a microcontroller development suite, he thinks.
<Quozl> That makes two. ;-)
<Anthtek> Quozl: oh rats, I hope you can post it to the list
<Quozl> Sure.
<Quozl> I didn't manage to get his permission though.
<Anthtek> oh well, that's OK, did he give any info for contacting him?
<Anthtek> I'd like to see if I can help or combine what I have with his stuff.
<Quozl> No. I'll post anyway. He didn't say anything nasty.
<Anthtek> OK, thanks.
--
James Cameron ####@####.#### http://quozl.us.netrek.org/
